Thursday, August 13, 2015

If Jesus Was a Myth...


CS Lewis famously asserted his "Trillemma" argument regarding the identity of Jesus of Nazareth.  It proposes that a man who claims to be God can be one of three things; God, a wicked liar, or a complete madman.  This is usually called the alliterative “Lord, Liar, Lunatic Trillemma”.

There is a fourth option which CS Lewis dismissed based on his knowledge of literature.  Namely, that New Testament is either partly or entirely mythological.  This option is often labeled, "Legend".  It proposes that the Apostles (or other early Christians) embellished Jesus' story with claims to divinity or completely fabricated the man wholesale.



When I encounter someone who has left the Christian faith, I often wish I could give them those three non-Christian options as a sort of exit survey:




The Internet, You Say!

This leads me to a lady I recently met while out at the park with James.  She mentioned that she used to be a very religious Christian but is now an Atheist.   

After a brief pause she asked, “Well, aren’t you going to ask why?”

“Alright, I’ll bite.” I replied, “Why are you now an Atheist?”

What followed was a laundry list:
  • The Bible makes no sense.
  • God is a sexist and oppresses women.
  • The patriarchs were bad, bad men.
  • The resurrection narratives differ from one another.
  • Prayers don’t get answered.
  • Christians have done immoral things.
  • Christians never help the poor and suffering.
  • Atheists are better people than Christians.

Finally getting a word in edgewise, I asked, “Then what do you make of Jesus of Nazareth?  Who was that man?”

She said, “I’ve researched this on the Internet, and so can you.  There is no evidence that the man existed. It is just a mix of other pagan religions - like Horus and Mithras. I like the teachings, but he never existed.”


 What I Would Have to Believe... 

It is easy to say the words “Jesus is a fictional amalgamation of ancient myths”.  Fitting that assertion into a sensible picture of history, on the other hand, is a bit tougher.
 
So let’s suppose the historical record is at least accurate in recording that the Apostles preached about Jesus in Jerusalem, then all over the known world, and were finally martyred.  What would I have to believe in order to rectify that data with the hypothesis that Jesus was a myth?


The Unusual Suspects:


The first question is what brought the Apostles together in the first place.  I would need to believe a small group of Jewish peasants – some of whom would have been natural enemies – came together for a common cause.  What made them do that?

Well, apparently they assembled to study the mythology of cultures they had no possible interaction with (like the Celts and Aztecs) and others they had historical enmity with (like the Babylonians and Egyptians).  Their goal was to incorporate that mythology into the Jewish religious and cultural narrative and begin convincing people it really happened.



The Missing Man:

They did this by inventing a man named Jesus/Joshua.  They gave him a profound body of public teaching (which no one ever heard him preach), a real hometown (filled with people who had never met him), real kinsmen (who would have had no knowledge of him), real people he met and argued with (but really didn't), and public events he participated in (none of which ever happened).

All of these claims would have been exposed as fraudulent under a modicum of scrutiny by the people supposedly involved, but I guess no one spoke up.

Nevertheless, the Apostles were so committed to this Hebrew-Pagan synthesis that they were willing to forsake all worldly comforts, suffer, and die for the sake of spreading it.  They did this without a single one backing down and admitting it was fake … even when their family and friends started getting killed too.




Jesus Who?

This story centered on a big public execution in Jerusalem … which never happened.  Yet the Apostles began their preaching in Jerusalem to the very people who would have known it was bogus.
The opponents of the Apostles - rather than pointing out that none of this happened - justified their actions (which they didn't do) and accused the Apostles of stealing Jesus’ body (which didn't exist).




Better Call Saul?

Next we have the odd case of Paul of Tarsus.  He was a well-educated and zealous Jew who was killing Christians.  But then he hallucinated a vision of Jesus and decided to join them.   

Despite his extensive education and interactions with Greek and Roman culture … he somehow didn't realize the whole Jesus story was stolen from pagan mythology.  Instead he was convinced this fictional story was the true fulfillment of the Jewish religion.

And once again, despite going to Jerusalem, meeting witnesses, and talking with Jesus’ supposed family.... no one mentioned there was no Jesus.



With all that behind me I would have to turn to the text of the Bible itself. 


A Likely Story!

I would have to believe that when the Apostles wrote down their biographies of Jesus, they crafted fictional tales of their own failures, stupidity, ignorance, cowardice, and cynicism.

They could have just as easily crafted tales of their wisdom and bravery, but nope ... they opted to completely humiliate themselves.  They went into a hostile world essentially using the following as a sale pitch:
“We are complete cowards who never understood Jesus and ultimately abandoned him!  Come listen to us expound on his life and teachings!”


Further, considering that their aim was to invent Jesus as a new fictional God, they also included things in their narrative which made him look really ungodlike.  Things like:
  • Saying things which sound like rejections of his divinity.
  • Expressing ignorance.
  • Experiencing intense fear.
  • Praying to God… when he is supposed to be God.
  • Being executed.
  • Crying out "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?!" 
Lastly, when they recorded the resurrection narrative – the lynchpin of the whole story - these masterminds chose to write accounts which sound different.  But one thing they all agreed on was that the first witness of the resurrection would be a woman with a history of demon possession.   Good move.


Absent Critics:

Looking past the apostles, I’d have to reconcile certain facts from Church history.

The early Christians interacted with the religions which Christianity was supposedly copied from, but the issue of plagiarism just didn’t come up.  The Early Church Fathers spent enormous amounts of time refuting objections from all quarters.  Somehow they never encountered anyone saying, “That’s just a retread of our Horus mythology!”



Looking down through history at my fellow Christians, I’d be forced to conclude that every experience and encounter with Jesus was a mental illusion.  Perhaps I could chalk it up to wish-fulfillment, but I would have to conclude the same thing about non-Christians.

Plus, I would have to conclude that every miracle experienced by both Christians and skeptics alike is just a bizarre and coincidental natural event.

Lastly, and most importantly, I’d have to believe that all those ancient pagan myths really do assert those Christian-ish things, and it isn't just the result of crappy scholarship done by anti-Christian trolls on the internet.



Or Maybe…

Perhaps all of that seems like a bit of a stretch.    Well… there is a much simpler solution available to us.  It goes like this:

There was a real Jesus.  The Apostles and others believed He rose from the dead and began preaching about Him.
Or as Saint Peter said:
 “The God of our ancestors raised Jesus, though you had him killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins. We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him." - Acts 5:30-32

 

27 comments:

  1. I've also heard the liar trope. The basis of this argument usually is something along the lines of "Everyone in the past is stupid."

    ReplyDelete
  2. Wow, I have thought this same thing, though not in this detail. Occam's Razor would suggest here that since the "Jesus existing" option has the fewer assumptions, it is the better solution.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. That would certainly seem to be the case. To propose that Jesus never existed you would have to pile up mountains of really bizarre and unlikley historical events to replace Him. The simplest solution, in this case, is certainly the best.

      Thanks for visiting my blog, by the way. I hope you'll look around.

      Delete
  3. I recently came across the new (to me, anyway) archaeological claim that Nazareth wasn't a place until after Jesus' time. Like someone now saying, "In the state of Israel in 1930," and not realize that Israel wasn't established until the 1940's.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Ha! There is a pattern of archeology being a fickle mistress toward skeptics.

      "There were no Jews in Egypt" "There was no King David!" "There was no pool of bethesda!" "There was no Pontius Pilate" In all cases, a little more digging proved Scripture right. Go figure.

      Thanks for reading!

      Delete
  4. There's a major "flaw" in your approach. You're trying to overcome emotional/spiritual problems with logic--which comes naturally to an engineer. Human beings don't work that way. If you're dealing with someone seeking the Truth and cooperating with Grace, what you've laid out is fine, but those leaving the Church aren't seeking truth, they're fleeing from it.

    Thus, your logical discussion here will be unconvincing. The proof in the pudding is that what you've presented isn't new. It's been around a long time. If it really worked to convince those fleeing (or denying) the truth, there wouldn't be ex-Catholics or atheists or even non-Catholics.

    The Fathers asserted that atheism isn't an intellectual problem; it's a moral problem. (Atheists hate hearing that!) You're not addressing the fundamental issue of "Not Thy will, but My will be done."

    "People prefer to believe what they prefer to be true." (Francis Bacon)

    But what you've laid out is useful for a believer to have in the toolbox in order to frustrate any pseudo-thinker trying to intimidate them or impress others. There are times when it is profitable to intervene when some poorly catechized soul is being spiritually assaulted. You can discredit the pseudo-intellectual in the eyes of the bystander, but the best you can hope for is that he goes away (angry) and/or you've defended the faith of a poor soul.

    If you're encountering someone one-on-one and they seem genuinely interested, you should ask early on whether you're wasting your time or not. You do that by asking the person this: "Are you willing to follow the truth wherever it leads at whatever the cost?" If you don't get a "Yes!" answer, you're wasting your time. Even a "yes" isn't enough, because it's really "yes...as long it coincides with what I already believe and how I live my life." They are not ready; you have to wait until they hit a crisis in life where they have no control over the outcome and are only left with the option of placing themselves in the hands of the Living God.

    That is the mystery of Sin.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think you are correct. I did not want to dwell on the lady I was talking to in this post. But I came away with impression that the most important parts of the story were the ones she kept to herself.

      Delete
    2. As evangelists, we are not called to reap the harvest, just plant and tend a garden, assisted the Holy Spirit.

      Humans are complex creatures with differing perspectives due to different life experiences. Different approaches are required for each encounter. There is no one size fits all approach, so it's best to be prepared to battle Satan with a variety of weapons, including logic. Jesus did instruct us to, "...Be ye therefore wise as serpents..." Mat 10:16

      It is true that logic by itself cannot work. We have to be spiritually prepared by fasting and prayer. We are not simply dealing with an ignorant person who has been logically misled. We are dealing with evil that is cunning, whether the misled person acknowledges the presence of the evil in their life or not, it's there. If Christ is attacked, evil is present.

      I too, am a Catholic layman who is an apologist, and am an engineer. I've been told exactly what has been said here, that the logic approach is of no use and is an incorrect approach. However, I can attest to many conversions when that approach was used to break the ice and get the conversation started.

      Keep in mind, when we use the Bible as a reference, historically or otherwise, in an argument with someone who doesn't trust its accuracy, we are likely wasting efforts. And, poking around into someone's immoralities doesn’t keep the conversation going, either. An, exercise in academia is sometimes the best place to start.

      The "lady" mentioned required data extraneous to Scripture that historically validates persons, places, and Scripture in its various early forms.

      When someone uses the "search the internet" line, I'm encouraged, and say, "Wonderful! Let’s exchange links. I'll look up yours and tell you what I think, and you look up mine and tell me what you think." It's actually fun.

      We are evangelists, like the Apostles, who often began their efforts by chatting about the things that people would commonly understand, in order to break the ice. And, yes, they used logic and reason. And, even discussed various paganism practices and architecture.

      We are creatures designed by God with an Intellect and a Will, not just an emotional system. Usually, weak converts are made when converted through the emotions. That's one of the reasons why Protestants have challenges keeping congregations long term. They mostly operate on emotions.

      We are designed with flesh and spirit. Emotions are of the flesh. And, while the actions of the spirit can evoke an emotional response, it’s a weak place to stay when attempting conversions. God does Love us without being weepy about it. "... The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." Mat 26:40 A study of Rom 7:14-25 is helpful on this. Despite having weak flesh, we should focus on where the strength lies, and that is in the spirit, but be mindful of lurking demons. Test the spirits.

      Catholicism is designed by God with the "Word of Law" as Her foundation. Law is logical, not emotional. All the "Doctors of the Church" were logical, whether they wanted to admit it or not. God is reasonable, because He is Reason. Catholics should have a logical understanding, or working knowledge, of what they believe in, or they will have no foundation, and they will blow away with the slightest winds of change. Which is why we have Catechesis in the Church, and why there is great falling away when we don't have good Catechesis.

      Mr. O'Keefe, your Catechesis and evangelical efforts are aiding the Church, not detracting from Her. Your approaches may not be perfect, but who's are? The important thing is that we are making evangelic approaches that do plant the necessary seeds and that do nourish the growing Faith in others. We are being attentive to the souls around us and availing ourselves of their needs.

      May God continue to bless you always.

      Timothy

      Delete
    3. Wait, did you just state that engineers aren't Human Beings? ;)

      Delete
  5. Great post. I put it up on the Fraternitas forums.http://forums.fraternitas.club/

    It's been well received.

    Bradshaw

    ReplyDelete
  6. I could never understand the logic of either Lewis' trilemma (it works only if one already believes that Jesus is God) or the Jesus-is-a-myth hypothesis. The latter doesn't take into account a possibility that Jesus existed but his life story - known to us as Gospels - was embellished with mythical/magical motifs by his followers. For example, I've been always intrigued by, in my opinion, the most neglected miracle of Jesus, namely, the fish and the copper coin ( Matthew 17:24-27). I say "neglected" because it is not only ever included into the Gospel readings but also I am not aware of a single artistic depiction of it. This event is eerily similar to the magical feats of, say, Apollonius of Tyana and it seems to have no deeper meaning whatsoever thus it is probably one of such embellishments.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. The logic of the Lewis trilemma is this: If a man tries to convince you he is God - one of three things must be true. 1) He is telling the truth - he really is God. 2) He isn't God, but doesn't know it. So he is crazy. 3) He isn't God, and he knows it. So he's a liar. The argument doesn't assume Jesus is God - a person is free to pick one of the other two possibilities. But most people are loath to say Jesus was a crazy person or a liar.

      The Jesus-as-myth hypothesis can exist either as embellishments to Jesus' story or a complete fabrication of the whole story from whole cloth - (mentioned both at the top of this post). In this post I address the latter because that is what the woman at the park presented me with.

      However, a similar post could be made for the mythological embellishments theory. That post would focus more upon the resurrection, the witness of the early church, and the manuscript history of the Bible. But fear not, the results would be just as hard to swallow.

      Delete
    2. While granted that the issue of accepting Scripture as inspired is distinct from the Jesus as myth issue, I offer the following observation.

      "This event is eerily similar to the magical feats of, say, Apollonius of Tyana and it seems to have no deeper meaning whatsoever thus it is probably one of such embellishments."

      @Hieronymus, Your comment, name, and the blog you follow on your profile suggest you might be Catholic. I hate to break it to you, but Catholics can not hold any view espousing "embellishments" as the Church (as well as a significant portion of other Christians) hold the Scripture as inerrant and inspired such that God is the author who can neither deceive nor be deceived. Additionally, the Church attests to the historicity of the Gospels.

      For the consequence of departing from what must be believed on faith by Catholics, I'd point you to Satis cognitum by Leo XIII.

      As for the meaning of Mt 17:24-27, consult the commentary by a Lapide which is available on the internet in a translation by Mossman:

      http://www.catholicapologetics.info/scripture/newtestament/17matth.htm
      (and other places).

      Delete
  7. Jesus simply does not meet the requirements of the Jewish scriptures for being the Mashiach. Therefor Jesus as the messiah, is an invalid argument and falls in the realm of myth.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. It does not seem to me that Jesus had to be the Messiah in order to not be a myth. George Washington was not the Messiah, but he was not a myth.

      In any event, I did a series on this very subject.

      http://actsapologist.blogspot.com/2015/03/a-prophetic-sketch-of-messiah-part-1.html

      I hope that helps! Thanks for reading!!

      Delete
  8. What all of you are implying by omission is that we don't need to receive God's undeserved gift of faith! In fact I cannot find the word "faith" in anywhere in the article or posts. To me, all the profound reasoning contained herein is secondary to our Repentance, His gift of faith and our choosing to receive it and then allowing the Holy Spirit to guide our lives for His purpose.

    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. While I appreciate your reminder of the role of the grace of God, this post is primarily about how history makes no sense if Jesus wasn't a real historical figure.

      There is nothing I can do to give someone else the gift of faith. However, in the Catholic understanding, faith and reason work together and complete one another. So if I can provide good reasons to believe in Jesus, there is no reason to suppose I am downplaying the role of faith. The two are not in competition.

      Thanks for reading!

      Delete
    2. One of the challenges of short forums like this is the inclusion-exclusion factor.

      Many well meaning people even have a challenge understanding such when reading something as in depth as Sacred Scripture, so we shouldn't feel bad if someone has a "fault by omission" assumption.

      Everything cannot be said that could be said about anything as complex as issues involving God, in one sentence, or even in a 1600 page book.

      Many think that St. Paul believed and taught that we are saved by Faith alone, simply by breaking down the first part of a verse, the part that they liked. The seemingly simple part, for simple Faith, assuming they have a simple God.

      And, those same misguided souls think that St. James is wrong about Faith and Work being functioning partners in a healthy spiritual walk. One flowing from the other, neither existing without the other in a worthy form.

      This article, in this forum, is demonstrating a walk of Faith, and the works and inspirations that flow from God when a soul has Faith enough to believe and accept God's Grace, thereby, in no way negating the existence of, and importance of, Faith.

      This article, the best I can tell, is focused on some historical references and suppositions involving the physical existence of Jesus Christ. Not sure where the Faith discussion fits in.

      We have to be careful when being critical about words used when having a discussion, and be mindful of the focus we have. Self examination first.

      Sometimes well meaning believers can become offended and go on attacks because of the assumption that a person is missing the word(s) most important to themselves in a discussion. Or, for lacking to describe things the way they think things should be described, from their own perspective.

      An atheist has no interest in the discussion of Faith. So why address it directly?

      The atheist is too busy denying that they themselves have "faith" in their belief that there is no God.

      "Faith comes from hearing", St. Paul wrote. So we teach the Gospel in the ways it is best received by the hearer. We don't preach Faith to the Faithless for them to receive it.

      Yes, Faith comes from hearing, but, from hearing what? Sermons on Faith? On something they cannot grasp? Something that they have no practical use for in their present mindset?

      The possible convert cannot be taught Faith by teaching Faith. Faith is transmitted and received only by the Grace of God, and is a gift that can be rejected because of free will.

      Certainly, lessons on Faith are good for Catechesis, but those attending such already have Faith and are learning about the gift they have received.

      Peace and Love of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you always.

      Timothy

      Delete
  9. there is always a man. Who is more than a man. Who is, in fact, a god. And this myth plays out over time and across cultures. Different men, different gods. Yes, Jesus existed. As a man. And he's as much a god as all the others.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you mean notable men and prophets, there have been many, but none who were foretold in detail hundreds of years prior to birth, except Jesus Christ.

      There is a difference between revealed and merely great at some point of existence.

      The issue of "all were gods", is also weak and incredulous in a serious discussion of notable accomplishments. It's one thing to start a movement, its another to be remembered for unforgettable supernatural acts, and yet another to die for your movement without defending yourself and leading others to do the same for thousands of years after death.

      Most movement leaders have minimal accomplishments beyond saying some notable things, some of which is written by themselves, usually by someone else who revered them. They also died like other people, with nothing really notable about their deaths. Almost all fought physically for the advancement of their movement.

      Jesus, the "Man" in question in this article, is peculiarly different from all the other "prophets, priests, or kings," or movement leaders.

      He was unique in too many this for His existence to be lumped in generally with other movement leaders without being honest and stating that He was truly unusual and special in various ways.

      No other movement leader can even be considered a god in supernatural terms, and most of them never claimed to be. Many of them would consider their god to be insulted by such a statement.

      But, at least the historical fact that Jesus existed is clearly acknowledged by nearly every religion in the world.

      And, He is even respected by the other major religions, even though His followers are hated by them. A good example of that would be Islam.

      Mohammad made polite mention of Jesus in his writings, but called for the death of Christians. Mohammad didn't consider Jesus to be God, just a great prophet... like he wanted himself to be considered. He wanted to be equal or better than Jesus.

      Keep in mind, by the beginnings of Islam, Jesus had already been supposedly dead for over 600 years and He had a following that spanned multiple continents. Such fame, such glory, such treasure!

      However, Mohammad was also fixated on his own image of God and would in no way allow anyone to consider himself to be a god, mostly because he knew that his own life proved himself to be far too ungodly for anyone to believe such a claim from him.



      Delete
  10. Thank you for the inspiring post - and some of the comments too.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Legend is something that develops quite naturally as people pass on stories. No one’s saying the apostles got together to engineer a complicated hoax. Even if we accept your straw-man misinterpretation of “legend” as some impossibly elaborate conspiracy it would still be a simpler explanation than assuming the supernatural.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think that presumes that the supernatural is somehow complicated. I said something similar to Hieronymus, but a similar post could be written about the "accruing legend" hypothesis.

      Delete
    2. Actually, many have tried to make the case that the Apostles, and others, got together and tried to engineer a hoax. Such a thing even happened immediately after the Resurrection, as stated in Scripture. The Jews of the day pressed the issue in many of their extra scriptural teachings, even to this day.

      A legend is built upon stories and suppositions, as described in the article, so I'm still searching for the straw-man misinterpretation of a legend. Not following you on that one.

      I do agree that using the supernatural as a defense would be silly, especially when approaching individuals who only think in terms of the natural.

      Fortunately, there are mountains of physical data to refer to, in both the secular and many religious historical study organizations, to easily dispel any thinking that Jesus did not exist on this planet.

      Too often Christians of all denominations, Catholics included, only use the "Bible" as their reference. The Christian Bible is a great reference tool when dealing with historical studies, but it carries with it a stigma that immediately turns off non-believers, and it does not include all possible facts, nor was it intended to. So, it's often best to dig into other sources that corroborate what the Scriptures say. Such can be found on numerous sites online and in numerous libraries and museums.

      Of course, a legend can work both ways. A legend can be for developing the existence of someone, or for dispelling their existence. Many anti-Jesus legends can be found, many new ones are developing rapidly online. And, after all, if you read something online its got to be true, right?

      Delete
  12. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. We see legends and myths develop throughout history on various topics that make outrageous claims and we are entitled to reject them on the basis that it is far more likely that the story is somehow incorrect than to believe the laws of nature were actually suspended (i.e. resurrection). I hesitate to accept a claim who's dogma forbids serious inquiry and was written in an era far more concerned with embellishment and storytelling than intellectual honesty.

    To accept "god did it" as an answer is to accept a multitude of assumptions. It only answers the question with another pile of more difficult questions. Who is god? Where does his power come from? Most importantly: Where's all the other evidence hiding? The existence of so many different religions and denominations around the world attest to the utter vagueness of the god answer. A simpler path: don't jump to such loaded assumptions no matter how badly you want it to be true.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "I hesitate to accept a claim who's dogma forbids serious inquiry..."

      Please, be more specific. Who's dogma forbids serious inquiry? What dogma are we talking about?

      "...was written in an era far more concerned with embellishment and storytelling than intellectual honesty."

      Which era would that be? By what evidence do you deduce if history is inaccurate in regard to that particular era? How long is that era? How is "intellectual honesty" more a part of recording history than "storytelling"? How is history disseminated? And, how is embellishment known to exist in an era? Does embellishment exist in our current era?

      "Who is god? Where does his power come from? Most importantly: Where's all the other evidence hiding?"

      Please specify what evidence is hiding.
      With some small amount of research you can find the answers to those question because those answers have already been made available to other inquiring minds who wanted to know. They are good questions and they do have answers. The Catholic Church answers them in every Catechism, as well as, in many writings by saintly Doctors of the Church who are much wiser than we are. It's all public information. Look it up.

      Other Christian denominations also have answers and references to your questions, but they mostly have no other choice but to refer back to those of the Universal Church, the Catholic One, because of its extraordinary long history and massive record keeping.

      Also, there is a great deal of secular data from various scientific studies that tie in quite nicely with the Church teachings. Some are intellectually honest enough to admit when religion and science agree, which is more often than not.

      "The existence of so many different religions and denominations around the world attest to the utter vagueness of the god answer."

      How does a multitude of differing views about the same God attest to vagueness? Wouldn't that attest to complexity and ignorance?
      Wouldn't a multitude of differing religions and denominations make it obvious that Mankind has a fixation on some sort of supernatural being, rather than, a doubt in such an existence? Why would so many different groups of people have such a fixation if God didn't exist? The majority of people, not just a small number of people, have believed in the supernatural for as long as there has been a recorded history of Man, and archeology is even finding evidence of such beliefs before recorded history.
      The logic of the argument involving many differing believers is like saying that, "just because there are many different car makers, and differing designs, that doesn't mean that roads exist".

      "A simpler path: don't jump to such loaded assumptions no matter how badly you want it to be true."

      Take your own advice. It is good advice. Just because you lack information and assume that someone is wrong on a particular subject, doesn't mean they are wrong. If you have evidence that demonstrates contrary facts, present it.

      Good luck to you in your search for Truth. Peace be with you.

      Delete
  13. " I hesitate to accept a claim who's dogma forbids serious inquiry"
    You show an astounding ignorance of the subject matter. You haven't come out and explicitly said so, thus I may be incorrect, but you show all the signs of what I call a 3rd class atheist. That's someone who hasn't or can't do any intellectual inquiry into the matters, and resort to parroting 2nd class atheists who at least will wrestle with the arguments even if they lack the intellectual chops to do so. But at least they try.

    "was written in an era far more concerned with embellishment and storytelling than intellectual honesty. "
    This is merely a wild, unsubstantiated assertion.

    "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
    I absolutely agree. Materialist Evolutionists make extraordinary claims but don't offer any extraordinary evidence. The claim is that non-living matter produced living beings. That is contrary to all of human experience, common sense, reason, the philosophical principle that "you cannot give what you do not have", as well as the testimony of the biological sciences themselves.

    What extraordinary evidence is produced to override all of that? Ideological drivel--really just a pathological need to bolster the delusion of self-autonomy because they are too threatened to acknowledge an Absolute Being to whom they owe obeisance.

    Theists have reasoned arguments for the existence of an Absolute Being. Atheists have no reasoned arguments for the non-existence, but merely sniveling complaints about a few injustices committed by theists. Atheists try to reject the proofs on the basis that they can't be empirically proven. That's logical stupidity. The proofs are based on reason; they are ideas, and thus intangible and non-material. It's absurd to subject them to sensory based testing. Reducing knowledge to only that which can be assessed from senses is what is called sensitive intelligence. That's what animals use. I find it deliciously ironic that atheists insist on thinking like the animals they profess to come from.

    "The existence of so many different religions and denominations around the world attest to the utter vagueness of the god answer. "
    This is a pathetic argument and not even stated in its strongest form. Positing an Absolute Being, who by its nature is intelligent, would establish and promote only one faith which would have to be true, if that is so. It can't be *proved* by reason, but is a reasonable proposition. So, why other religions? Anthropology and Linguistics provide an answer. When peoples separate they take with them what culture and knowledge is available at the time. But as a result of living apart, there are deviations and degenerations from the original culture. Some even devolve into human sacrifice.

    Now, that's an explanation from positing an Absolute Being. Atheists, rather, attempt to confront this from a hostile position, often falling into circular reasoning. There is no god; therefore religions are an invention; there is no common belief; ergo there is no god.

    "A simpler path: don't jump to such loaded assumptions no matter how badly you want it to be true."
    Francis Bacon said it better: "People prefer to believe what they prefer to be true." That's true of atheists as well. Atheism is the most convenient, slothful creed because it demands the least and frees the person of any moral restraint. Religions are make demands and are inconvenient. The most inconvenient is Catholicism because it demands the most--as would be expected if it came from an Absolute Being.

    Believe what you want--God gave you free will. He'll even let you choose to separate yourself from Him for all eternity if you want that badly enough.

    ReplyDelete